JB's Brain dump.

[jbrown62r]

So I was reading through the So Cal OTMX forum and they have a tread asking how to get more participation. I'm not sure where to go with this, but I would like to hear some ideas on how to improve things.

Here is a link to their discussion. otmx100.websitetoolbox.com/post/Incentives-to-race-more-often-5836312?trail=15

Here some ideas that are swimming around in my head right now, and I reserve the right to change my mind 100 more times. This is just a brain dump so I will stop thinking about it.

Feel free to add to it or add some constructive criticism.

Find ways to give more track time. Find a way to lower cost to the riders. Find a way to get our message to people who do not frequent our website or MX775. Possible hire a marketing firm. Print business cards so when a member does find somebody interested in racing or the club they can hand them some information. We are a non-profit, we should find ways to give business and volunteers tax deductible receipts. More might volunteer if they got a $200 tax deduction. Maybe put on a OTMX series that includes the other tracks in the area. Maybe start putting on OTMX races on Saturdays at tracks that have SMRA/RMA races on Sunday. Maybe Change age scale to every 7 years like the gang, then Combine OT International/OTHG Nationals, make them double points. Bring back the Letter requirement. (Its way more fun to cheer on guys from your chapter that you might not know other wise.) Change our Letter to R or Z since we are no longer the only chapter in Nevada. Maybe start giving awards to the racers and the helpers. Maybe we could do some club camping/ trail riding trips. Maybe charge 10 bucks for second class. Maybe charge 10 bucks for all support riders at the internationals.

I have more, but at least I have those out of my head for now.

[rooster73]

;DStart with discussion on some of your posted ideas. Then maybe I will post another with some of mine.

I am assuming you are speaking of participation at our Inernationals around the west........not local races, or maybe both? An OTMX series that includes other LOCAL tracks sounds like sportsman races to me. Makes sense for locals to ride a series that will not include tons of traveling. The whole idea of a series is so ALL can benifit (promoters) so fairness is the key there........................running sat. races before a sunday race would get (IMO)less participation due to more expense to the rider to go to both in one weekend............................age scale could be discussed but isn't that important to an OT when he has the OTHG to "fall back on".............................Co-produce othg and OT nationals, what a great idea. We did that in the OLD DAYS and it always was a great weekend, race, event. Could see that making for some great nationals for everyone. That should be investigated and presented as a cost saving measure to clubs and increase participation..........................the letter thing died s own dreadful death some years ago. Was more of a nuisance than anything. BTW, we were N, not R. R is the gang..........................$10.00 for a 2nd class is great, can we still make money? I can remember $ 15.00 second class fees and we had a ton of extra entry's. That would sound good to me.................................I believe we did the $20.00 suppoort class thing and didn't make much difference in turn-out. Maybe $10.00 would do the trick, could be good. I know I would have planned on the gang national this weekend riding the support class for fun if the entry wasn't so darn high.

Please let the discussion begin...............it's good for us to brainstorm and maybe come up with some more good ideas. Thanks JB for starting us going..............lllll Now let's hear some more................................................Rooster

[jbrown62r]

Ok, So my thought process is a bit clearer now and maybe I can put some of those things in logical order.

The OTMX and OTHG, but especially OTMX has lost it's appeal to the Moto community. Motocross still has interest, but its not like it used to be. In this day and age most people especially those under the age of 30 want everything "now". Growing up with the Internet may have shortened their attention span... and they want to think they are getting a deal.

Since I have gotten back into motocross around here I have been asking just about everybody if they ride, and if they race. If they have a bike why don't they race? I gotta tell ya I have heard more excuses than I ever thought I would, but the common thread is lack of money, time, or interest. I'll put this out in 3 posts, and give everybody some time to comment, so Please comment. If those of us who know this forum exists dont post how can we hope that the new people will.




Issue 3: Interest
Many people have a lot going on in life, between kids, wives, careers,and other hobbies motocross has found a back seat. Many of these people have no idea what we are doing, or why. The less involved people think we are doing this to make money, or stroke egos. Some have lost so much interest they didn't even know there were still motocross races around here. Alot of this can be put back on the local bike shops and having to compete with the Internet for parts sales. I don't know anybody who enjoys going to BVH any more, and that used to be race central. The guys behind the counter all knew when the races were and were knowledge able about how to do bike set up for each track. Now when a guy wants a new tire for the Fern or stead they go on line and read reviews, buy a tire, not sit at the parts counter and BS about where the best riding is for that tire.

Some have lost interest because its the same trophies, same tracks, same waiting 10 hours to put 30 mins on their bikes. Some got screwed out of a trophy and hold a grudge, some hold a grudge against club members. Some got hurt, and nobody checked in on them, so they faded away. Some say its not the same family friendly environment that it used to be.

So how to peak the interest of the 1400+ people who are in the SMRA data base, and the new people who are just now getting into MX? I don't have an answer here, but we need to find a way to contact them. That could be by mail, phone, radio, email, facebook,smoke signals, drive to all their houses and say hi? This is where I believe a marketing firm can help us contact our past clients and help build a new brand. A marketing company maybe able to review our business model from an outside view and give some simple suggestions that we have missed because we are to close to the problem.


Reminder... Problem is that we are getting less than 90 Riders at internationals, less than 100 at practices, less than 200 first entries at local races, low club membership.

[larry63r]

Most of the people that I know have one of the two people in the house out of work. Mostly the husbands that used to work in the construction industry are now house husbands. It is all they can do just to take their kids riding once in a month. Then if they breakdown it takes a long time to get the bike fixed. If they all rode 2-strokes it might not be so bad but they all have 4-strokes that they can't afford to have fixed and they are not confident in their abilty to fix by themselves when they do break down.
Untill we get out of this depression I don't see what we can do get them out to the races. Yes, this is a depression. There are over 500 electricians on the out of work books in my local. There has been over 300 on the books since 2008. Most of my friends ran out of unimployment years ago. Even in bad years the hall is a walk through at this time of year. Now it has become a homeless shelter!

[rooster73]

Yes, I agree with larry about the unemployment, the reasonable amount of money a family can direct towards any sport right now is limited. Job maket improves, our turn-outs improve. No real surprise there..............I also agree that the 4 stroke has hurt the sport more than helped. YA, Ya, I know, tech/tricks move forward, but the expense is to great now for working class people to afford. 4 strokes cost more and the whole riding/racing program costs more also. Income down, prices up. Pretty simple, not enough to go around.

Long standing, the way out of a depression, recession is to throw money at it. That would seem to be the idea of a marketing group promoting for us. Costs money to do that but a return is expected to make it worth the risk.....we would expect to "corner the market" with our marketing program whichmeans we would in effect strip the customers from other promoters....................(whatever is done, there is still only so many that still can afford to put out the coin. The ones that don't have it won't come no matter, so we are looking to get the most from the ones that can.) No sure that is the way to promote this but tell me how it works and maybe I can understand.

Personallyl, I am not in the poor house, still working and keep my bills paid. Have been racing more years than most of you have been alive and have been active with many, many orgainizations over the years. My interest is great, grand, full of life. I just can't afford to do as many race events as I used to. Don;t really have to do more promoting to keep my interest, I just need to beable to afford to spend more to do the ones I want. Simple fact, people are broke.................Rooster

[lawnman]

Some newbie personal thoughts on #3: INTEREST, if it's alright:

I read the So Cal thread in it's entirety. The outsider looking in who provided some comments really grabbed my attention. It seemed like he offered what people might need to hear instead of what they might want to hear. Then I looked at our home page and the things the club is committed to (near the top with the orange cones). I must admit I was a bit surprised to not see anything about members, socializing, fun, activities, family, play rides, supporting other club members, etc. The verbs I do see are: preserve, maintain, improve, organize, encourage and promote. All good, but sounds almost businesslike. So I came up with some questions and I mean them sincerely, I am not even remotely trying to be sarcastic, I truly do not know the answers and would like to.

(1) Would you say that the individual clubs/chapters/affiliates (not 100% of the correct term) are here to support the International schedule and aspect of the organization (which might explain the words used in those four goals), or are the individual clubs the primary concern and the International aspect a side benefit?

(2) Has there ever been a survey (forum shows 121 members in this club) asking what the interests of those 121 are? For example:

a) What were you looking for when you joined the Nevada Old Timers MX?

b) Has that desire(s) been met?

c) What has not been met?

d) What would cause you to leave, or if have left, what caused you to do so?

You see everyone probably has a bit of a different reason(s) for joining/not joining anything and we tend to equate that with their interest. Sometimes an organization starts with a group of participants interested in going in one direction, but doesn't update it's mission/purpose when the original participants drop off. Or the direction is based on a small group of people that attend every meeting and the organization doesn't find a way to hear from the majority that don't attend meetings. It would seem a survey, w/o names attached, could be distributed, reviewed and confirm/deny some assumptions. Perhaps this has been done, if so I apologize.

You could also amend the 4 questions to non-club members and hand those out at races/events seeking their input as to why they would/wouldn't join.

Some other suggestions: Start a Welcome New Member spot somewhere here and ask new members to introduce themselves (maybe there is one and I missed it). Seems like a good ice breaker. Put up a table/booth at bike shops, malls, fairs/festivals on big weekends (non-race of course) with a couple of bikes, a mannequin in full gear, some trophies, pictures, a video of some races/ride days and have members staff the booth. Have a picture of a member w/ their bike, their bio and their explanation of why they are a member and put the title "IS THIS YOU?" across the top and hand these out. There was an article in the Sacramento paper about a vet racer racing Hangtown this year and his reasons for doing so, which got great feedback. Camp/pit together at the races. Bring back the number on the plate (do you see sports teams selling their team's caps/sportswear w/o the team logo on it?) so current members could spot a newbie and walk up and introduce themselves, or visa verse.

To me, capturing/keeping someone's interest boils down to meeting their needs/wants. There's probably at least 121 of them nearby.

[rooster73]

;D Great post lawnman, I liked the whole thing!!!! I don't have those answers right now, (maybe some of them) but they are worth looking into and finding those answers. Thanks for the input. It all makes sense.........................Rooster

[jbrown62r]

Great posts guys!

Rooster, your interest have always been strong, and you have been a huge help in guiding me through what the club has tried in the past. My idea of bring in a marketing company would just be for the evaluation process. Years ago when I though I was going to be a marketing guru I worked for a place, and I learned a ton just sitting in on the evaluation process when they would break down a company. They often find things that companies are doing that rubs people the wrong way, or find ways to find out what our clients are expecting from us. Much like the questions that Lawnman posted. Its not about paying for a big marketing campaign, but getting some outside opinions and maybe an action plan.

Lawnman at my first meetings I asked several of those same questions, and the responses helped me form my mission plan. I think I could have done better at asking questions though by letting people voice opinions with discretion. People wont always give it to you how it is face to face.

Our club in particular has a unique opportunity because we are responsible for our own track. This has added a few other elements to our club dynamic. We have people who are members for different reasons. This adds some nice diversity, but also makes a singular goal challenging.

I'd love to hear some more comments from those who don't typically post. (Duane, Stan, Mike, Max, All the New members)

On Monday I'll post up my observations of Issue 2 "TIME"

[larry63r]

I would like to answer some of those questions from my point of view.
1) For me I joined the Nevada OT because it is a local race promoter. I have been in other clubs that were not local promoters and I didn't feel right just going to other promoters races and having some motos lumped on their schedule or begging them to hold races just for the club.
For me the international races are just one more aspect of being an Old Timer. It is not the main reason I am a member.
2a) When I joined the club I was looking for a club with like-minded people that are interested in traditional motocross.
2b) Absolutley!
2c) I would like to have some club only play days.
2d) The only thing that would cause me to leave is if the club disbanded.

I talked to some of my friends that have been members of other chapters and have left. Mostly the Sierra OT. I asked them why they left and what it would take for them to come back. They all still ride and most of them race CC. They all said that they left because of the lack of riding time. The Sierra OT doesn't have any local races and they thought that the internationals, while fun, were just to short. They are all novices and don't like only having 15 minute motos. They would rather race a CC and get two hours of race time for their money than go to an international and only get five 15 minute motos and two practices. I agree that the 15 minute motos for the novices are to short. I would also point out that I have friends that ride expert and master and think that their motos are to long. I would like to see a format change at the internationals. I think that 4, 20 minute + 1 lap motos for all classes would be about right. The masters would still get more laps than the novices because they cut faster lap times but we would all get the same time on the track. I also think we should all get 15 minute practices.
A standardized day would make it easer for the riders to move up in rank because they would still have the same amount of time on the track. You wouldn't have to get used to longer races as you get faster. You would only have to concentrate on getting faster.
The 20 minute +1 lap moto would make it easer for the promoter who has to keep track of the motos. If the leader goes past the finish line at 19 minutes and 55 seconds he goes one more lap and then gets the white flag. If he passes the finish line at 20 minutes and 1 second he gets the white flag. Easy as eating pancakes. All the finish line needs is a stopwatch to start as the gate falls.
O.K. now you can explane to me how I am wrong but you have to tell what you think would work.
Thank you

[jbrown62r]

Love the input guys.

Funny how time has gotten away from me on the day I was going to post about issue number 2 "TIME"

Issue 2: TIME
This one seems simple on the surface, but I've heard lost of excuses that link back to "TIME". We as a international OTMX club promote the international series, but most find it hard to make time to drive to a race on Thursday night after work. Many of these races are over 9 hours away, and if your towing a big trailer or traveling in a motorhome these journeys take a lot of time. Yes you can always load up after work on Friday night and drive all night, get there just in time to sleep for 2 hours and try to race. (Been there done that many a time) 2 day races including the gang and large events like mammoth take up a whole weekend and a lot of the time you get back just in time for work on Monday.

Now on a local scale we are competing with all the other kids sports and any number of other family fun activities. I've had guys tell me that they only race in the fall because of T.ball, baseball, or wrestling. I've been told that they cant ride or race in the fall because of Football or a kids play, or school work. I've been told that families don't race in the summer because of camping, or boating, or any number of things that pull our moto clients/club members away. The older crowd whos kids are grown up or don't have kids can find the time, but usually by the time the kids are out of the house they have other things to do and the honey do list is more important that racing a dirt bike. Some have told me they have won enough trophies and just like to practice a groomed track now.

Some have said they started doing MRANN races because they don't have to sit in the pits all day just to ride for 30 mins. At some point in just about every bodies racing career they stop and think that they should be doing something other than sitting in the pitts.

I don't have an answer for this issue of "TIME". I love the time at the track between motos. It gives me a chance to visit with friends and meet new friends. My kids are young enough that sports and activities are not much of a concern to them. My wife wants me to go to church on Sunday, so I try to find a balance there. I am very interested in Motocross, so I make time for my riding, racing, and talking about motocross on line. Not all can do that. We are all at different stages in life and this post is just to help people understand what I've learned since I started asking people why they don't ride or race any more.

With any luck we can find away to cater to those whos time we are competing for, or they can find a way to be more interested in what we are doing.

[lawnman]

Pretty astute observations, not much to add on personal time. To me, personal time is a like a fingerprint, everyone's (amount & priorities) is different.

Seat time is another story though. One of the added benefits of OTMX is more motos (traditional formula) and should really be emphasized. I think 63r's suggestion above deserves some review. I too hear, more and more, about the lack of seat time current mx offers. I too seem to start the year all pumped on mx and end the year trying to ride more off-road. I find that on the drive home from an off-road event, I feel spent. On the ride home from an mx event, I feel like I spent more time on the logistics of racing, than racing.

Some of the OTHG clubs have begun to offer an OTHG Support class, for those members that want to race another class. This is in addition to the non-member Support class. It seems that with the IOTMX (and the OTHG) style of racing you do get locked into one class. When my son was racing, we would each do two classes and came home with many more racing stories and that spent feeling. It seemed like the day went by faster also.

I don't think it is unique to IOTMX. I have seen many a day when I was racing at MMX and there are as many, or perhaps more, riding at E-St. Inevitably, someone will post about why so many choose to ride instead of race. The answer always seems to come back to more time on the bike riding, than racing.

You know what I would like to see, just once a year, would be a local race, on a decent length track, with one 30 min +2 lap moto as the day's race for that class(es). You could do multiple gate drops per moto if needed. It would be fun to hold one race to make up for the current system we are discussing, and give us a feeling of what it is like when we are watching it on TV. I would be interested in what the turnout would be. Today's current mx format is a result of the 80's boom in minis, that the promoters were trying to capture, within the one-day race schedule. To me it stresses quantity over quality. So if this type of race were held, it might have to exclude any minis. The added benefit would be that you don't have to spend all day at the track.

[rooster73]

8-)Again lawnman, I like your way of thinking. I want to ask you about your last paragraph and see if I am reading it correctly. Are you speaking of maybe the old format of 3 skill levels, and 3 displacement levels? If you are, I am all for a one-off race during the season to try something like that and see what the "new" generation of riders get out of it. Have a race advertized as "Old School" motocross with Novice, Inter/am and expert classes in 125, 250 and open displacements. Run two motos each at 30 +2 and call it a day. I know, I know, what about all the 4 strokes. Well, still the same, 250 is a 250 and open is a 450, doesn't matter if it's a two or four stroke. There are still open 2 strokes out there. (actually open is any size)

Another look would be like old European Scrambles format with the same skill levels and displacements on a extended motocross track with 1 and 1/2 hour races. You race your 90 minutes and your'e done for the day. They have done a couple of these locally recently and they were well recieved.

You meationed you use to run two classes with your son. That was the norm for awhile, and still some do it. It does make the day more manageable and doesn't seem like you are setting around in the pits all day, but lately the expense has gone up with everything else so not as many second classers anymore.
Make it more affordable and it would happen again.

As for the internationals, the 5 moto format is all the racing you need in one weekend. Two days, 5 motos and your butt is on overtime on the way home. Internationals are great, it's the local races that seem to "bore" people.

I hate to sound like an old fuddy duddy, but I will anyway.......since the introduction of mini's, then pee-wees the racing program and number of classes has seen "MY SPORT" turn into "THEIR SPORT". I know, I know, dollars and cents (but not sence) has made promoters look at the parents of these little wonders as their money makers and as we get older we look toward the desert as a "makes sence" alternative. That is one reason the Club Playdays are so much fun for us older guys, we don't have to listen to or wait on all those pee-wee pissers running around all day. Boy, they really do get under my skin................maybe didn't know just how much until I started typing about it......................................Rooster

[lawnman]

Rooster, I'm easy, whatever gets us more seat time should be explored and tried. I was looking at it from a daily race schedule point of view. We currently spend about 30 mins. a day racing, via the 2-moto format. If time at the track is a deterrent to participating for some, would getting your race done all at once appeal to them? I watch the Grand Prix days @ HL (40-50 min races) and people show up, and leave, throughout the day, knowing what time their race is, or that they're done. I venture to guess that they were able to race and still take care of the other items on their "to do" list that day.

I say think it, try it, evaluate it, continue it/drop/modify it it. But at least when the idea is brought up again, there is some history. Hopefully that history is documented. What we see as SX today was put together on a napkin over coffee.

Plus, times change. I wonder what someone who has never raced a long moto might think of it. Some may never know it was even like this at the local amateur level. When I started the format was going from 3-20 min motos to 2-30 min motos. Then those 30 min, motos became 20, then 15 min. motos. There was actually some race strategy required, instead of the all-out sprint of the 15 min. moto format. In the longer motos you could recover from a good size mistake and still work your back into the thick of things.

I don't know what a promoter could pull off, but it would be fun to experiment locally with some different formats and gather the feedback. However, as stated everyone has a different perspective of how much of their precious time they want to spend at a track. Some formats might appeal to some, and be disliked by others, but I'm sure the racer totals would tell the tale of what to continue/drop/modify.

[jbrown62r]

Great stuff guys.

I have been drawing up and thinking about different formats for years now, and have only come up with a few try able ideas. I'm sure they will fail in one aspect or another, but they may succeed in some ways. This year our finances were to tight in the spring and we had some maintenance to do on vehicles so most of my experiments are sitting on the sidelines.
So to answer Lawnmans question of how much a promoter can do. In my mind a promoter can only experiment on non series races, and has to accept that if nobody comes they will take a total loss on the expenses associated with putting on a race.

Here are a few of my ideas/thoughts on format changes to spark interest, asist with time, or just to try something different.

*Add a team race/ iron man race at the end of the day. Motos get done at 2-4pm, then the team races starts and is ran for 60 mins. Guys can just sign up for this one race and show up in the afternoon with a buddy. Or race there two motos, and get 50% off on the team race. This should get them over 90mins seat time.
*Put on a Old School series and shorten the motos to 4 laps, but run three motos. These would be a lot more like sprints or hot laps. They could even be 3 lap motos. This would keep the racing tighter and more enjoyable for the spectators.
*Split the day up into two parts and run all the kids and younger classes in the am, then run the older guys and pros in the PM. If a guy wants to run a class in the am, then he gets twice the moto time in. If a dad and son are racing then they would be there all day anyways. For me personally I could mow the yard and make my wife breakfast, maybe go to church, then show up and practice at noon, then start racing.
*We could lengthen the motos to be 8-12 laps and give more seat time. This would add some strategy to the motos and may spark some interest with the guys who like to workout.
*How about running a tight ship. If we communicated well and always started motos asap, started practice on time, shortened the riders meetings, shorter intermission, no water breaks, ect.ect. we might consistently be done at 3pm and riders could plan something else for the afternoon. Money back guarantee to be done by 3pm?

But would any of this actually bring in more people on the first try? I doubt it. A promoter would have to do this several times so that word could get out and more people would come to the second or third attempt. That would be where you might start to see higher turn outs and new faces.

Next week I'll put up a post with thoughts on ISSUE #1 (MONEY).

With any luck this thread of posts with continue with results of our experiments and discussion's. Who knows maybe we will get some new members just because they see that we are trying to be proactive and positive.

[mitox7]

I agree with Rooster 100% on the mini's. Their plethora of classes has given us the 12 hour race day and the 10 minute moto. Don't even get me going on mini dads. REM saturday motocross at Glen Helen has run a successful program for 14 or 15 years without them, granted they have a much larger pool to draw from. When I raced there we got 3 practice sessions, ran 2 motos and were outta there about 1:30 Great program. But alas somehow as a promoter you need to make or at least not lose money.
JB your idea of running the mini's in the morning and then the big bikes later sounds interesting. With the tracks available at Fernley could you run all the mini's on a separate track to speed up the day?
Running a tight ship is excellent, keep things clicking ! This would make time for longer motos. Your old school idea of 3 motos could be 2 heat races, say 10 minutes each and a 20-30 minute main. Also Lawman's idea of a GP is something that could be used for one round in a series, with the benefit of bringing in some of the MRAN guys.
Speaking of a series, since we don't really have enough members to do our own, maybe a joint series with the Sierra chapter for 4 or 5 races? We could do Fernley , Honeylake, Riverfront and or EStreet and finish with a GP at Fernley.
The last thing I have is classes, there are too many of them at the local level. A B and C or novice am expert what ever you want to call them are plenty, even for the old timers.
Thanks for getting this going JB hopefully you can come up with a way to keep more of the Old Timers coming out to the track.